[BACK]


Transcript of: "Gladio B Revisited"

0:00 [START] [MUSIC]

0:03 Female Voice [voice-over]: You're listening to The Corbett Report, CorbettReport.com.

0:17 James Corbett: Welcome, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to another edition of The Corbett Report. I'm your host James Corbett of CorbettReport.com, podcasting to you as always from the sunny climes of western Japan here on this first day of February, 2013. Welcome to Episode 256 of The Corbett Report podcast, "Gladio Revisited."

0:35 Now, I hope that most of the listeners in the audience will understand that "Gladio" in today's title refers to Operation Gladio, a false-flag terror operation that is commonly understood to be a NATO stay-behind operation that was formed in the wake of World War II as a bulwark against the possibility of Soviet invasion in Western Europe. And it is certainly something that we have covered here on the podcast in the past, for example most notably in Episode 49 of the podcast back from July of 2008, in an episode entitled "Paperclip Nazis and Stay-Behind Gladios." And it is something we've covered elsewhere on The Corbett Report besides.

1:15 And it is something that is being increasingly covered in the alternative media, and I think that references to Operation Gladio are thankfully becoming more common, because it is an exceptionally important piece of the entire War on Terror paradigm history that makes sense of much of that history and puts it into the proper context of the strategy of tension, which is the underlying philosophical, ideological basis for false-flag terrorism: why and how that entire idea operates.

1:46 So it is vitally important that people come to an understanding of Operation Gladio and the admitted history of this operation. And it is heartening to see this being referenced more and more in the alternative media. But I fear that there is something of a dogma coming to surround what Operation Gladio was and its place in history -- emphasis on history -- instead of its understanding in its proper context and role as something that is still ongoing today and still forms the basis of the War on Terror paradigm that we are currently living through. And it is my hope that today on the podcast we will at least start exploring some of the ways in which Operation Gladio is ongoing and is still affecting the world around us. And we have to understand this vitally important history to have a proper grasp of what all of this War on Terror is really all about.

2:37 So in order to start dissecting the "official" alternative history of Operation Gladio, of course, once again it is important to remember that now Operation Gladio is now a completely officially-admitted operation, and a lot of the history has been declassified and has been put out in various parliamentary reports -- most notably, of course, in its original exposé in the Italian Parliament. But there is, as I say, a dogma forming around it, a nice short encapsulation of Operation Gladio that, I think, if not totally gets it wrong, at the very least it does miss out very important key details about the operation and what's really behind it.

3:18 So first let's start by taking a look at that idea of Operation Gladio as it has been cemented in the minds of the few who have actually bothered to look into it. And there is a couple of sources that have become standards. For example, one of the ones we mentioned back in Episode 49 was the now-classic BBC2 1992 documentary Operation Gladio that was directed by Allan Francovich. And that is widely available online: I will put a link, once again, in the show notes to that, as it is one of the essential documentaries. Even as it was coming out just shortly after the exposure of Operation Gladio, it still is one of the baseline documentaries for an understanding, a wide-overview understanding of what the operation was about.

4:00 But if we are going for a wide-overview, short, in-a-nutshell encapsulation, popular understandings of an event, why not go to that source for all things popular -- and usually misconceptions of events -- Wikipedia, which has an entry on Operation Gladio which gives the kind of short-form synopsis that I'm sure most of the listeners are familiar with by now. And in the Operation Gladio entry on the Wikipedia page, it reads, "Operation Gladio is the codename for a clandestine NATO "stay-behind" operation in Europe during the Cold War. Its purpose was to continue anti-Communist actions in the event of a Soviet invasion and conquest. Although Gladio specifically refers to the Italian branch of the NATO stay-behind organizations, 'Operation Gladio' is used as an informal name for all stay-behind organizations, sometimes called 'Super NATO.'"

4:47 Well, that is the absolute short-form encapsulation of what Operation Gladio was, and this is usually followed up with some of the incidents that form some of the most spectacular examples of what Operation Gladio did. For example, of course, the Bologna bombing, and the murder of Aldo Moro, and the Piazza Fontana bombing. Some of the other spectacular incidents that have been linked to Operation Gladio, and lots of them in the Italian context specifically: that seems to have been the one that has been the most exposed and the most delved-into. But it is important to note that this is something that took place in a number of different European countries, and as even Wikipedia goes on to note, it was not only in some of the European NATO-friendly countries, but also in some neutral countries.

5:37 So it did take place in a wide swath of Europe, and although it is most commonly now associated with NATO as a stay-behind operation -- i.e. these are forces that were planted in various countries that would stay behind in the event of a Soviet takeover to act as a resistance -- the reality once we start to peel off the layers of that rhetoric is that in fact it wasn't started by NATO. It actually predated NATO, and in fact the idea that this is some sort of passive stay-behind operation that somehow got out of control, or self-activated, or however the dominant narrative put it, that also is a misconstrual of the actual reality on the ground.

6:24 And to Wikipedia's credit, it at least later notes further on in that synopsis, "The role of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) in sponsoring Gladio and the extent of its activities during the Cold War era, and its relationship to right-wing terrorist attacks perpetrated in Italy during the "Years of Lead (late 1960s to early 1980s) and other similar clandestine operations is the subject of ongoing debate and investigation, but never proved. Switzerland and Belgium have had parliamentary inquiries into the matter."

6:55 Well, as I say: to their credit, they at least raise the controversy there in the opening paragraphs of the Operation Gladio article. So once again, I would suggest people use, if not the Wikipedia page, perhaps the BBC documentary, as starting points to get a broad overview of what Operation Gladio was, its scale and scope. And of course you might want to go back and re-listen, or listen for the first time, to Episode 49 of this podcast, where we did talk about some of this history.

7:21 But in order to establish, really, the roots of Operation Gladio and some of the ways that it began to unfold, we're going to turn to a conversation that I conducted quite recently with Tom Secker of Investigating the Terror. And for those of you who have not checked out Tom Secker or his work before, I would wholeheartedly suggest you do so. And you might start with some of the conversations we've had with Secker on this podcast in the past. Very enlightening conversations on a host of topics to do with the War on Terror paradigm and predictive programming and many other points, pieces of this puzzle besides.

7:56 But in our latest conversation, which took place just over a week ago, we talked about Operation Gladio and its roots, and where it really came from. And this is a very wide-ranging conversation. It's almost one hour long, so I would suggest -- I would really implore people -- to go and listen to the entire interview where we get into a lot of the specifics of what Operation Gladio actually did, what was done in its name, and a lot of the pieces of mystery and puzzle that still surround this operation. But with Tom Secker, we started by delving into the roots of the program, how it was established, and who was really behind it.

8:34 Tom Secker [recorded]: Well, I mean, it started during World War II. World War II obviously was a massive conventional military war, but it was also a massive unconventional intelligence war. And in fact, that's largely... I think -- perhaps because of my biases and interests -- I think that was how it was really won and lost, in a lot of respects. And Gladio started out as simple stay-behind units, the idea being that when... it was kind of inspired by when the Nazis spread out from Germany and seized Poland, Czechoslovakia, France, Denmark, Norway, Holland; the armies in a lot of those countries decided that they weren't going to fight them, basically. That is either... there was no point trying to directly confront the Nazi war machine.

9:29 But what they did, and what other countries on their side of the conflict did, was leave in stay-behind units, secret military units that could be activated once the incoming, the invading army had taken over. So that's kind of where the idea for a stay-behind army starts. And interestingly enough, Ian Fleming's brother was in the Special Operations Executive and was involved in setting up the stay-behind armies during World War II.

9:58 Anyway, towards the end of the war, when it became relatively clear that the Allies were going to win and that the Axis powers were going to lose, the intelligence apparatus that had been set up -- particularly in Britain, but also in America -- became convinced that the next great threat, the great post-war threat, was going to come from Russia. And this is sort of before the Soviet Union even really was the Soviet Union as we conceive of it, I think. But nonetheless, they thought very much that the danger was that having exhausted so much defeating fascism, defeating the Nazis, that they would leave themselves open to a Soviet conquering, a Russian conquering of Western Europe.

10:48 So at the end of the War, when most of the troops -- the winning troops, the Allied troops -- went home and got on with their lives, or as much as they could, various units -- both intelligence and military units -- were left in almost every Western European nation -- at least over a dozen Western European nations in any case. And these were under the guidance of the Special Operations Executive, which is sort of the paramilitary arm of MI6, or became that; and the OSS, which became the CIA. So that's where the operation began. And it did, I think, begin quite genuinely: they genuinely -- rightly or wrongly -- conceived of a Russian threat, and these units were actually left there, at least in the start, for the purpose of potentially defending against that forthcoming invasion.

11:43 James [recorded]: But as your tone indicates, that of course isn't where things left off. And it developed a kind of life of its own. It kind of developed into something different; and it took different forms in different countries. And as I understand it, Italy perhaps was the most advanced or most developed form of this stay-behind operation that kind of took on a life of its own in the ensuing decades. And I suppose that is because of a number of factors, not least due to the internal politics of each country.

12:12 But let's talk about NATO and how it started to become involved with this; because, as you say, this was an essentially an intelligence operation. And as I understand it, there was something to do with NATO protocols; and as countries signed on to NATO, basically, part of what they were signing on to was basically a tacit understanding that they wouldn't tackle right-wing extremists committing certain attacks and spectacular events. To what extent do we have that formalized? To what extent do we know about those types of protocols? And to what extent was NATO really involved in furthering Operation Gladio?

12:53 Tom [recorded]: Well, I think NATO was centrally involved in turning Gladio from its original form of these essentially defensive stay-behind armies into something more proactive. I mean, the exact documentation on NATO's, as you say, sort of, obligation, its protocols to member states as to what, I suppose, the political formulation of those countries would look like, and in particular what the politics of their security services would be: I'm sure it is very well-documented somewhere. But it's not the easiest thing to get your hands on NATO paperwork. In fact it's almost impossible: NATO have refused, to my knowledge, every Freedom of Information request on this topic.

13:43 But there are testimony from NATO officials and from other people involved in these circles around this time -- diplomatic circles and so on -- who were saying that this is, in effect, what the deal was. That, as is so often the case with these things, the extent to which it was formalized: fair question, but it's kind of maybe beside the point. The point is, were those nations obliged to go along with this or not, regardless of whether it was on paper or whether it was just sort of said in the wind.

14:14 So I think NATO was integrally involved, in fact, in changing Gladio from its original form into its eventual form. Because NATO is essentially the Anglo-American establishment. That's all it ever really was -- or it's a kind of outgrowth of that. Most of the member states of NATO don't really have a say in anything that it does. They just kind of have to go along with it. And in particular if you look at, for example, the National Security Council's documents in the immediate post-war period, in the mid-to-late 40's, they explicitly talk about how, for example, the CIA was the designated agency for dealing with internal insurrections, as they saw it: i.e., political problems in other countries.

15:08 Exactly what this connection between CIA and NATO is, to be honest, I'm not sure. It's not something I have a massive amount of information on. There must be quite a lot of connections. But I read Daniele Ganser's book on this, and I recently read Richard Cottrell's book on this, and they only really manage to establish a kind of Department of Defense-NATO connection. The CIA-NATO connection is pretty much shrouded in secrecy. So exactly where the lines of authority are being drawn in this is not at all clear. What happened is relatively clear; exactly who was responsible a bit more, kind of, fuzzy.

15:45 James [recorded]: But as you say, I think it probably is a little bit of a formality to establish the paperwork of it. And in some ways, I think this goes to show that there is, in fact, some sort of governing principle, governing bodies, governing people behind the scenes that are not necessarily established through paperwork that's documented, but are demonstrably still behind these types of operations. Perhaps most notably, in this particular instance, with the French withdrawal from NATO: which, of course, did not affect in any way the stay-behind operation that was in France. There were still the stay-behind units there.

16:23 So I think we can see that there is a kind of a disconnect between whatever formal agreements might have been functioning and what individual countries might have been actually doing on the ground. And I think another example of that is the fact that many of the leaders of these countries did not necessarily know about the stay-behind operations in those countries. Perhaps you can speak to the kind of disconnect between the actual reality and who knew what about what was actually happening in their own countries.

16:53 Tom [recorded]: Well, I mean, there is a useful example in the Portuguese Gladio, in that it wasn't quite as formally involved with the local intelligence services as it was in other countries, in particular in Italy. In Italy, you're talking about military intelligence people setting up -- actually creating from the ground up -- right-wing extremist militant groups like Ordine Nuovo, Avanguardia Nazionale. These were invented by people like Pino Rauti, who worked for the Italian military intelligence. That's kind of unambiguous.

17:29 In Portugal, it was a bit different. I'm not convinced that there's any evidence that I've seen that the local Portuguese intelligence actually knew what was going on. It was largely run through an organization called the Aginter Press -- who were, as the name suggests, they were a kind of radical publishing press; a radical right-wing publishing house. But that in itself was a front for a bunch of people who have all kinds of OSS connections or neo-Nazi connections, and what have you. One guy in particular, the guy who set up the Aginter Press, was a guy called Yves Guérin-Sérac. He is ex-Vichy military intelligence from World War II. He's a Nazi collaborator.

18:14 So he set up this organization, and it is used for not just propagating right-wing ideology -- or, what: extreme right-wing ideology -- but also for transshipment of the various things that you would need to run a secret army. So we are talking explosives and guns, but we are also talking people. The Aginter Press, in particular, was involved with shipping people over to Latin America so they could be trained in the School of the Americas. It links up to that extent.

18:54 And obviously some of these people then end up in coups like the one in Chile. So it's sort of... it's obviously connected directly to British and American military, and British and American intelligence. But I don't think... I've never come across, for example, a local Portuguese intelligence agent who was working at a high level in the Aginter Press. I've never found any kind of connection like that in my reading on the topic. So all of this suggests very much that this is sort of not just an outgrowth of the stay-behind armies from World War II, but I suppose also an outgrowth from Project Paperclip and the Western Nazi collaboration post-war, because a lot of these people then seem to turn up in the early 1940s, 1950s Gladio gangs.

19:54 James: Once again, Tom Secker of Investigating the Terror. And once again, I ask you to go and listen to the entire interview so that you can get the bigger overview of Operation Gladio and the way that it unfolded in Western Europe and some of the questions that still surround the operation. Once again, Tom Secker: just an absolute fount of information on all sorts of topics like this, and he has definitely done his homework on Operation Gladio as well. So it is a very interesting conversation.

20:22 But from that point, I want to transition into, I think, something that is often neglected -- if not completely unknown to -- a lot of even the most diligent alternative media researchers. And that is the effects of Operation Gladio not in Western Europe, as most of the focus of the scholarship on Operation Gladio hitherto has focused on, but its effects in Central Asia and the Caucasus region up until the present day. And this is just an absolutely fascinating piece of the Operation Gladio puzzle that puts into perspective the entire War on Terror paradigm as it exists today; not 30 years ago in the context of bombings that took place in Italy or anything of that sort: that is vitally important for people to understand and expose as documented examples of false-flag terrorism that we can now identify as having come and sourced from NATO and Western intelligence agencies and their minions in various positions. But it is important to understand how this is effecting us today.

21:30 And there are lots glimpses into this that we have seen in the last several years for those who have been paying attention. So I'm going to put some of those links and sources in today's documentation section -- along with, of course, all the other articles, interviews, and videos that I mentioned today -- but with some provisos and caveats. Just like Wikipedia or any other source like that, there are good pieces of information to be taken away, but of course there is also misleading pieces of information, and some information is omitted altogether that makes the entire picture altogether different than what it really is.

22:07 So for example, I'll point people to an interesting article by Christopher Deliso from AntiWar.com from February, 2008, called "Deep State Coup Averted in Turkey," which does have a good overview of some of the ways that the Cold War and NATO and the Deep State came together through Operation Gladio to effect what was happening in Turkey, in the creation of the Deep State there and some of the ultranationalist factions that were energized through the auspices of this operation. But as Sibel Edmonds pointed out to me, for example, recently when we were preparing for our own interview on this subject, although he does get some of the background to this story correct, he misses out entirely on the current picture and gets some of the things just, frankly, wrong when it comes to the present day and age. So it does have some good background, but it can't exactly be trusted on all counts.

22:55 I'm gonna throw in another link to something that is related and deeply important when we come to the Turkish Deep State and how that relates to this bigger picture, and that's an article by Gareth Jenkins from last year talking about the Sledgehammer and the politics of Turkish justice and some of the events that are happening right now in Turkey. Once again, an interesting source with lots of information and some very thorough notes on the situation.

23:21 But today we're really going to get into this with an extended feature interview with Sibel Edmonds. The audio of this interview has been posted in its entirety to CorbettReport.com. And although I say this quite often on the podcast, I could not stress this more vehemently this time: if you never take my advice on anything else ever again, please just go and listen to the full audio of this interview. It is probably the single most important interview I have ever conducted at the Corbett Report. It is full of very important information on exactly this topic, Operation Gladio; how it extended into Central Asia and the Caucasus; and how it is still continuing to operate there today through a new version of this same Operation Gladio: a new form, a new Plan B that has emerged from the Operation Gladio that is still very deeply entwined with world politics and puts the entire War on Terror into perspective. Again, I can't stress this enough.

24:25 This has been covered, in bits and pieces, time and time again by Sibel Edmonds on BoilingFrogsPost.com. So I will throw in links to some of the articles that she's put up over the years on this subject, including the New York Times exposé on Imam Gülen's charter schools and also an earlier article talking about the Washington Post's coverage of the Fethullah Gülen Islamic network and its CIA ties. But again, all of these bits and pieces are very difficult to put into the bigger picture when we are unfamiliar with a lot of this information and its context.

25:04 So in our interview, Sibel Edmonds did a brilliant job of outlining this context and putting it into place so we could see how it developed. And unfortunately, there's no easy way to really excise just significant chunks from this interview. The only way to do it is to play the interview in its full context. So I'm not going to play the entire interview, which is an hour long, but we are going to play a significant chunk of that interview on today's podcast. Once again: strap yourself in, get your notebooks ready, because there is a ton of information in this interview. And please, please help me to spread this information around to other people to get them informed about what Operation Gladio is -- still, today -- really all about. So without further ado, I present to you my recent interview with Sibel Edmonds of BoilingFrogsPost.com.

25:56 Sibel Edmonds [recorded]: Sure. Turkey always was the most important center country in all this Gladio operations before the fall of the Soviet Union. It's interesting because when I go and read what's available to public online -- which is very, very little on Gladio: that's why I was ecstatic when you had your interview on Gladio a week ago -- and what you see is usually things like Italy. You know, it's like Gladio and Italy and how it unfolded, how it was disbanded, et cetera, et cetera.

26:32 But you don't see much on Turkey, and Turkey was the most important, the most important operations center for Gladio. And obviously it's because of, A., its geographic location. Just take a look at Turkey on the map. And if you're looking for that period of time before the fall of the Soviet Union, from the Black Sea it goes eastern, you're looking at all the former Soviet blocs in there. And then again its position within the Middle East, and the other side being connected to Europe.

27:12 So Turkey always had the most position within this Gladio operation until before the fall of the Soviet Union. And that you don't see. There are very few articles written out there scattered. There's one good one by Le Monde [Diplomatique] which was concentrating mainly on the actors you just mentioned, Abdullah Çatlı and Susurluk incident. And you have couple of authors in Switzerland and in England who have written about this. Nothing: nothing here in the United States on that.

27:51 So I'll give you a little bit of history, because you covered a lot of this with your previous guest. But this history is going to concentrate more on the character that we're going to be talking about and the Turkish side on this, Gladio operations until the fall of the Soviet Union. And in Turkey, there were two prime groups that were working within Gladio network and carrying out some of the most important operations: in Western Europe, in Northern Europe, and mainly in Eastern Bloc. And that was, one, the formal official Turkish military. And that is made up, both Turkish military and the Turkish military intelligence, directly connected to NATO, Brussels, and within the Gladio operation.

28:47 But then, beneath the military -- Turkish official military -- you had the paramilitary force. Who were these people? And that's very, very interesting. These people... again, you look at some of the articles and people talking about it, yeah, they are saying they are ultranationalists. But what kind of jobs did they have? Who were these people who were recruited by Turkish military, trained, and absorbed into NATO's, US/NATO's Gladio operation?

29:17 Well, a lot of these people, actually... in 1980, they were in jail, OK? They had positions that were... the best way to describe them would be the Godfathers in Turkey. Babas. That's how they refer to them in Turkey: the babas, which means the Godfathers. They were the top people who ran blackmail, heroin operations. And even back then, it was -- Turkey has always been the most important artery in moving heroin into Europe, whether it came through the borders through Iran, or it came via some Kurdish factions coming through Iraq...

29:59 So Turkey has always been important. And these babas ran -- military did too. Turkish military did too. But they were also ultranationalists; but they were secularist ultranationalists. They put Atatürk, the father of Turkey, the father of modern Turkey, in basically the place of God. And of course Atatürk advocated secularism -- forced secularism. And I have to emphasize this: forced secularism.

30:27 And these guys, even when I was growing up in Turkey, they were very easy to identify. You know, they usually wore this mustache that really resembled the Hitler mustache, and they had salutes that were like -- for Grey Wolves, that was like this: [gestures]. And their babas were in jail. And these guys had informants all over: not only in Turkey, but in elsewhere.

30:51 So, as part of Gladio's plan, Turkish military, Turkish police, Turkish intelligence forces, they took all these notorious -- I mean, these are psychopaths, sociopaths, OK? These people are mass-murderers -- they took them out of those prisons and they said, "You know what? Now you are going to -- with your skills, with what you do, with what you know -- you are going to serve the State. And that is Turkey, and the Great Turkishness. And Great Turkishness is also being protected by the West, because the Communist is out there, they're going to take us over. Then we have these issues with the Kurdish people..."

31:32 "And meanwhile, you can also fill out your own pockets, you know? You're gonna still be big, you're gonna still be Godfather, but your main role -- and this is why we are releasing you, bringing you out -- is going to be serving us for all these operations." So these guys were removed, they were sent to various centers, including in Brussels. And they received training, both via Turkish military, via US-NATO forces... And they were given diplomatic passports. Not only Turkish passports, but passports from various countries.

32:10 And they still moved, worked in the area where you move heroin; but also weapons smuggling, mass murders, a lot of false flag attacks. Not only inside Turkey, but in other countries as well. And again, your guest talked about some of these: the assassination attempts, the Pope, et cetera, et cetera. And they also filled out their own pockets.

32:37 So these were the characters. Now it's very interesting. You say -- or a lot of people would say, "Well, you know, this was before: during Communism. And we also did things with mujahideens and Bin Laden in Afghanistan. And also it deals a lot with Turkish politics. So why should that interest people here in the United States?" And because this is as much as they know or they read or they hear.

33:05 So what happens after the fall of the Soviet Union? Well, the character you just mentioned, Abdullah Çatlı, he's one of the main foot-soldiers, one of the main commandos under the military -- which is Turkish military -- which is under NATO and the United States. One of the most notorious figures. I mean, this guy was responsible in and outside Turkey of hundreds of, thousands of murders. Bombs... in some cases they would just storm a house with medical students in Turkey and they would cut everybody's heads. And you know, those people were accused of advocating for socialism or communism.

33:45 This guy, he actually ends up on the list of most wanted for -- INTERPOL's most wanted list, OK? -- for various reasons. Murders... international murders, not only murders in Turkey. You're looking at INTERPOL's most wanted, right? Heroin smuggling, weapons smuggling. So he's on the top ten most wanted people; and this is at post-Soviet Union. And he ends up in a jail, in a high-security prison in Switzerland. He gets arrested during one of his movement's operations.

34:22 And when you look at some of the reporting on this guy -- including the newspapers, or the articles written on the Grey Wolves -- it says, while he was in this high-security prison in Switzerland -- this is Abdullah Çatlı -- he escaped. He actually escaped by support of helicopter. So you're in a high-security prison in Switzerland and you mysteriously escape via helicopter. And some more detailed stories from very few reporters who followed up and wrote on this: and that was a NATO-owned helicopter! I mean, this really sounds like a movie plot, something that Hollywood would make. And so, yeah, this is the most wanted INTERPOL guy.

35:09 It gets even stranger. Same guy, while still wanted after he escapes -- NATO helicopter from high-security Swiss prison -- he mysteriously ends up in England. in London. OK? And again, mysteriously, in 1989, the government -- UK government -- grants him citizenship. Hah! It's not even one year since he enters the UK. He is still the most wanted on INTERPOL's list.

35:43 And then, within a year after that, this same guy, Abdullah Çatlı, flies over, comes to the United States -- and this is around 1990, 1991 -- comes to Chicago, and is mysteriously given an American passport. Uh, an American Green Card; this is not passport yet. And during all this time he is among the top ten most wanted people by INTERPOL. OK?

36:11 Now, the first question people should ask -- especially those who say, ah, this is about some, you know, during Cold War and communism, and it's a Turkish internal politics -- why the most wanted guy by Interpol; a notorious murderer, drug-runner; ends up in England of all the places, and gets a citizenship? Why he comes to the United States and is given another citizenship?

36:36 So that's the first questions listeners should be asking. And, why Chicago is where he settles? And that's where he settles. And when he settles there, he had dozens of entries and exits from Chicago. And after the Susurluk scandal, which -- I'm gonna get into it -- it basically comes out, with all those investigations they had in Turkey that from Chicago, he carried out all these operations in Central Asia, Caucasus, Eastern Europe, Xinjiang province of China.

37:13 So he kept flying, while he's still most wanted by INTERPOL. OK? We don't know how and why he got all those citizenships while he's most wanted, and why he carried four or five diplomatic passports. Nobody gets into those questions. And these diplomatic passports are not only given to him by government of Turkey.

37:35 So he... one of his trips... again, this is very well-documented. This is not conspiracy theory. This is not some Top Secret classified documents any longer, because this stuff all came out during this... after this scandal in Turkey. So he... in 1996, 1995, he is the one who goes to Azerbaijan from Chicago, via Turkey. Goes to Azerbaijan. With a team of several people, less than a dozen, he carries out this attempted assassination against Aliyev. This is the Aliyev Senior, before his son became the President of Azerbaijan.

38:14 And it was meant to be an "attempted," that would not succeed. Because if you look at Azerbaijan's position during that same time, 1994 to 1996, before this assassination attempt, you would see that Aliyev was still siding with Russia. It was still the old loyalties. You know, the old loyalties of "We were part of the Soviet Union, and we are still siding with Russia." Now, this is when the United States, the West, was trying by its proxy, Turkey...

38:54 Why Turkey? They speak Turkish. What language do they speak in these countries, including Azerbaijan? Turkish. They are Muslim. What's the religion in Azerbaijan and all these ex-Soviet blocs? Muslims. So this was the ideal proxy to go grab countries like Tajikistan and Kyrgyzstan and Azerbaijan and say, "OK, say bye-bye to Russia. We want you to be one of us." Right? Well, of course Russia was doing its part from the other side.

39:28 So during this period when this assassination attempt occurred, Aliyev Senior -- the President in Azerbaijan -- still was loyal to Russia. And all these different attempts to move him to the other side have not been successful, so they move to plans that included assassination attempts, paired up with blackmails. Because again, during this time, the doors, the borders were open in Azerbaijan. A lot of these Turkish babas, Godfathers, moved in there, and they opened really lavish, interesting casinos. You say, "Casinos, Azerbaijan?" Yeah.

40:05 And guess what: several Aliyev family were given advanced offerings in these casinos, and they collected a lot of debt, OK? And this is people very close to Aliyev Senior. And they started getting death threats saying, "Well, if you don't pay off these millions and million dollars of debt in your casino gambling debt, we're gonna take you out." Then comes the assassination attempt.

40:30 So again, if people were to go and look at the records on this assassination attempt on Aliyev, they would see that Abdullah Çatlı's name. They would see that Aliyev came out and said, "The people responsible for this were NATO/US via Turkey." And the Turkish President calling and saying, "No, these were the thugs, the mafia people, you know? They have nothing to do with us." All these denials. Whatever happened is, Aliyev very quickly switched position after this assassination attempt, OK?

41:03 You fast-forward, look at Azerbaijan. Since 1996, Azerbaijan's been the closest ally of the United States and NATO. In fact, they are becoming a NATO member. For the last eight years, NATO has been there with a base training them. They've been passing the tests. They went from purchasing something like $25 million dollars weapons... worth of weapons from the United States, today to something like four... three and a half... $4 billion dollars of US weapons. So, success. Gladio was successful. It was... who carried it out? Abdullah Çatlı. After he finished, he just shook his hand and said "OK, mission accomplished," came back again to Chicago.

41:51 Now, I'm going to open a parenthesis here and say, remember: for the past 11, 12 years, I've been talking about the center of all these operations that have to do with my state secrets privilege, and people involved, was in Chicago. I have been saying "Chicago" so many times, so I don't believe anyone is -- at least not your listeners or mine -- who haven't heard this: me saying "Chicago, Chicago." So, he went back to Chicago.

42:16 This was one of his trips. His other trips included going from the other side, through the Pacific: going to China, and then from there going to this area, Xinjiang. This is extremely important: again, Xinjiang, Muslim population. And they are referred -- in Turkey, they don't call them Xinjiang. It's "[East] Turkestan," you know? [East] Turkestan. They speak Turkic dialect.

42:41 Guess what? "Up there? A great place. Imagine: they get their independence, we can have our little mini base there. You know how close we are to China?" I mean, they... on the one hand you can say, "Yeah, there's Taiwan out there." Well, this is going to be even more important than Taiwan. And then look again: the other important strategic location for Xinjiang or [East] Turkestan, a.k.a. Uyghuristan. You look out there, you see Pakistan, you see Afghanistan.

43:11 This is a very important region. This has been a very important region, prize, for the United States, for the West. We've been -- we've been doing a lot of things there. Every time you hear -- at least when I was working there, during this period that FBI was investigating these... not operations there, but people here, the criminals in the US who carried out the operations there... those terrorist attacks, they were orchestrated from a long distance, OK? You go to Turkey, then from Turkey you go to Brussels, to England, and then you go to the United States.

43:53 So all the orchestration is not some minorities or some Muslims get together, suddenly they go and... it doesn't happen. It didn't happen that way, at least during that period. And this guy from Chicago was sent to go and organize, carry out a couple of terrorism, uprising events, turn around, back to Chicago again. Back to Chicago again.

44:14 So NATO, the Gladio operation via Turkish military and Turkish Godfather ultranationalist criminal thug paramilitary, continued until around 1996. Towards the period -- like, 1994 to 1996 -- the decision makers, the top layers of NATO, the US -- you know, what we usually refer to as "shadow government," "the powers" -- they were having this debate. They were having this two options in front of them.

44:49 Two plans: which one is better? One is what they did before the fall of the Soviet Union, and what was using ultranationalism -- fascism, OK? -- against the Soviet Union; against Communism. Versus what they have already seen as a very successful, successful plan. One, they fought in Afghanistan with the mujahideens, Bin Laden group. But then, recently -- and this is 1994, 1995, 1996 -- they were seeing its use again and again in the Balkans, in the Kosovo region, in Bosnia.

45:30 And this is when we have all these mujahideen: Bin Laden, Zawahiri -- think about it, you know? -- factions from Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan: bringing them to Turkey, train them, bring them over there. It was like, "You know, these ultranationalists? They haven't been very productive, and we think the mujahideen Islamist factions are going to be much more useful in our main objective of taking over, having more of this ex-Soviet blocs on our side." OK? "On our side."

46:06 So this is... during this, sometimes we use them, sometimes we use the fascist Godfather ultranationalists. But then, in nineteen... end of 1996, Abdullah Çatlı -- the man we've been talking about, the thug who went through Xinjiang and this stuff -- he comes to Turkey for another mission that he was gonna go and implement. However, while he's in Turkey together with some beauty queen and a few other colleagues... they are in Turkey, they're traveling in this black Mercedes, and they have a car crash, and they die. Everyone in the car except one guy dies, right?

46:50 Well, before the Turkish police or military got to the bodies, the local police -- that wouldn't know anything about who were these people -- and the local journalists got to the scene. And, lo and behold, here is the world's most wanted man: Abdullah Çatlı, the great Godfather, with all his diplomatic passports with him.

47:15 But not only that: together with him you have the Chief of Police of Turkey. I mean, the top police guy. You have incredibly important legit political figures. It was like, "WTF, woman! What are they doing in the car with this guy?" Died.

47:32 Basically, this was... well, in Turkey, even though it had been leaked in little bits and pieces, it was this huge exposure of the thugs -- criminal, ultranationalist fascists -- actually working with and for the Turkish government. And for right now I'm going to say the Turkish government: that is the Turkish military, the Turkish -- the legit Turkish institutions, right? So all the drug-running they were doing, they were all controlled and managed by the state. And all the killing, the terrorisms that they... they're found responsible for: again, they were executed for the state, OK?

48:14 This was huge in Turkey. It caused an uproar. A lot of documents started leaking. Just like 9/11 Commission, there was this huge commission established in Turkey. Nobody talk about anything else but this Susurluk... they called it "Susurluk scandal" because the car accident took place in Susurluk.

48:33 Now, there was this fear by the West -- and this was the United States, the Europeans -- like, "Uh-Oh! Now, we know that a lot of these commission members, they are like ours, Thomas Kean, and... but: some of them, or by default, a lot of other" -- excuse my language -- "crap may come out about our roles, the stuff we did." "We" being the ultimate bosses.

49:00 And guess what happened? One of the Turkish Gladio handlers in Turkey was an ambassador, United States Ambassador in Turkey at the time, OK? This guy was Ambassador from 1992 until the Susurluk scandal. No other guy than Marc Grossman, the guy I have been saying for the past five years, "You've got to look at Marc Grossman."

49:25 So, with this fear that a lot of secrets -- state secrets -- were going to get out during this, investigations and journalists digging in -- some people were leaking; some people were talking -- the United States right away got their man out of Turkey: Marc Grossman. No reason cited. He still had another one-and-a-half, two years left. No reason cited.

49:49 Guess who else was pulled? Another guy who was handling the Operation Gladio, the Turkish militants in Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan. This man, his name -- at the time, a Major -- Major Douglas Dickerson. This is the man, if you have read my book, if you know my case, was the one who was married to the spy in the FBI. Major Douglas Dickerson: he still had one-and-a-half years left. He was working for Marc Grossman in Ankara.

50:20 His main task under NATO was operation Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan. There were three or four countries that he directed the Turkish paramilitary Gladio operations in those countries. Lo and behold, the same man -- this is documented -- he is pulled out of his position and immediately sent to a base in Germany -- this is American military base -- and from there to Brussels. Hah! This is interesting!

50:48 Now, these characters -- that's been talked about in my case for 12 years -- were there in 1997. Susurluk happened, they were pulled out. So was the top military man -- and this was the top man for the Turkish so-called "counterterrorism" operations commando -- was sent on a mission to Washington, DC Turkish embassy. And again, this is documented. Right after Susurluk. They had to get him out. He was a chief guy in the military overseeing these thugs and these operations; these false terror, false flag operations. Not only in Turkey: Central Asia, Caucasus. A lot of Chechen operations; Eastern Europe. So he was pulled. He was sent to Washington, DC. He never went back. Again, nobody cited any reason.

51:38 They took all these important figures, they took them to Brussels, and they took them to Washington, DC. And then it was the decision-making time for the "top guys in the world," OK? For NATO, US, UK, saying, "Too much exposure. This chapter is closed. Gladio is not closed. We are going to Plan B, Gladio Plan B operations, which... we have already prepared for it some, to some extent. And that is: we are not gonna use paramilitary, we're gonna use Islamist factions. Who? a.k.a. mujahideens. a.k.a. al-Qaeda."

52:26 James: Once again, the incomparable Sibel Edmonds: famed FBI whistleblower, host and founder of BoilingFrogsPost.com, in an extended interview on the Corbett Report earlier this week. So once again, I will urge you to and get the entire audio of that interview available now for download on CorbettReport.com and please help spread this information around to others who are... even those who are awake to the false-flag War on Terror paradigm, because this puts into place a lot of the pieces that make this entire story make a lot more sense. And hopefully even for those who are not awake to this at all, they will be able to understand the pieces of this puzzle that are being laid out here.

53:05 Now, if a lot of this information was new to you and a lot of these names and dates and places are confusing and bewildering, well, take that as a good sign. It's a sign that we are encountering new information, information that has not been rehashed a thousand times over and that does add to the picture that is being painted here of the false flag war on terror and what it is really all about, and who are some of the main players in this. Again, some extremely, exceptionally important information. And if this leaves you with more questions than answers, I would say that at the very least that's a sign that we are getting closer towards establishing what it is we are actually looking for in defining this War on Terror.

53:45 Now, of course there are still many, many more questions to ask about this: the Deep State in Turkey and how that plays into the entire Operation Gladio; how these actors have coordinated and collaborated in the past; what things are going on today that we can identify that are related to this deep state and the actions that are taking place behind the scenes; and what is likely to play out from here. A ton of information to think about, to ponder, to ask questions about to try to connect some of these puzzle pieces together. But of course we can't do all of that in one podcast episode.

54:19 So, for those of you who have listened to the whole Sibel Edmonds interview, you will notice that we are going to conduct further interviews on this topic in the future. We're going to continue delving into this, including some of the names and dates and actors and people that we identified in that interview, and we're going to continue delving into that in future interviews. And one thing that I have asked is for people to send in their questions for Sibel so that they can actually start to identify some of the things that they're still confused about or that they want outlined in greater detail, or some of the people and places that they want explicated further. And if you send those questions in through the contact form on CorbettReport.com, I will collate them and try to distill them down to the essence and ask them to Sibel in our next interview -- or interviews, perhaps -- on this very important subject. So you are part of this conversation, and we are going to delve into this together further from here.

55:14 But let's use, at least, the information that we have in today's episode and the information from the show notes for today's episode as the starting point for what is probably the most essential part of this entire War on Terror paradigm and narrative that's been created around us and getting to the bottom of what is really behind it. So we're gonna leave the investigation there today, and again we've looked at so much information that I hope you will use this and re-use this episode as a guide along your quest for finding out more information about who these people are and the way they fit together. And once again, please send in your questions for Sibel to the contact form of CorbettReport.com, and we will continue delving into this in the future.

55:58 And on that note, let me remind you: Corbett Report is listener-supported media, so I do appreciate and genuinely thank all of the listeners out there who have supported, either monetarily through subscribing or buying a DVD, or for those who have helped to spread the word about this information. Once again, I couldn't do it without all of you. So on that note, we're going to leave it there for now, but I will be back in the very near future. So until then, thank you all for listening, and take care.

56:26 [Music]

56:45 Female Voice [voice-over]: The Corbett Report is brought to you by The Corbett Report Subscriber, a weekly newsletter featuring James Corbett's international forecaster editorial; recommended reading and viewing; discounts on Corbett Report DVDs; and, once a month, a subscriber-only video. Sign up today to start receiving your copy at CorbettReport.com/Support.

57:13 [END]


[BACK]

Creative Commons License
This transcript by "Adjuvant" is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License.

changed November 2, 2014